When will people wake up to the fact that Biodiesel is not a viable replacement for Oil?
There are two key problems.
Firstly the change in use of arable land to biodiesel agriculture is creating an unholy competition between food for people, and "food" for cars, which has resulted in huge hikes in the price of food crops such as wheat, causing increasing starvation and poverty globally.
Secondly even if ALL global land use were turned over to biodiesel production, it would still be nowhere near enough. Presently 20% of US argricultural land is only producing enough biofuel for 2% of vehicles.
(source and reference http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2005/12/06/worse-than-fossil-fuel/)
So when will people wake up to this?
Checked out wiki on algae as suggested, turned up this "However, according to one 2007 study, algae-based biofuel will not be commercially viable until fuel prices exceed 0/barrel" - which of course doesn’t mean you are wrong. It just means that fuel will be ten times the present price IF a viable strain can be produced.
While scrap oil conversion into biofuel is just great, it would provide less than 0.3% of the fuel needed if all of it was used for fuel.
Just a thought Derek on this Algae stuff. Whatever claim is made algae-producing oil, the laws of physics are inviolate. Algae like any other plant fixes energy through photosynthesis which is essentially powered by the sun, and therefore subject to the 1kw/m^2 rule x process efficiency. The 4000-10000x as good as other biofuel looks on surface inspection to be little more than hype, comparing the top google search (which smacks of MLM) with the more balanced wiki entry.
@ Molly - same deal as chipfat. There are some good sources which can be converted from waste, but the volume of waste is nowhere near enough to solve the problem on its own. When have to start turning over land-use you hit exactly the same trouble.
"Battelle’s recent report entitled, "Near Term U.S. Biomass Potential", looked at a scenario for producing 50 billion gallons of ethanol per year from cellulosic biomass. "The primary biomass supply would consist of waste biomass streams plus the production of energy crops." The waste stream was estimated to contribute 40-50% of the supply. The report concluded that the expansion of biomass supplies needed to achieve this level of production "would not result in large impacts on the agricultural system." Beyond this level of production, "dedicated energy crops would be required with implications for the cost of cropland and competition with food crops."
http://www.harvestcleanenergy.org/enews/enews_0505/enews_0505_Cellulosic_Ethanol.htm
Bohemian, what you post is actually a consequence of the competition between land to be used for food or oil. In the first instance land upon which food production was not profitable becomes profitable for the first time. That is how it begins, but not where it ends.
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Filed under: Making Biodiesel
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I don’t know why bio-fuels even got into the picture unless this is just the lack of understanding from just about everybody. Why don’t we use sun energy? We have been using it (in the form of fossil fuels,wood and now in a small way bio-fuels) forever. Now we can use it directly (solar panels) or indirectly (wind, waves) and not "burn" anything.
I agree with you on the turning of land over for oil production is foolish.Oil crops are unable to produce enough oil for the supply of fuel to the US . But what about Algae oil ? Thats what oil from the ground is made from. And Algae will produce up to 4000 to 10000 times more oil than a crop like canola per acre. I know cause I am about to open a 7 acre trial plant in Australia at a cost of 5 million dollars. It was discovered that algae can have up to 97% of its weight in oil. And it can reproduce every 24 hours. Imagine having a 1000 gallon tank in your yard being fed on crap from your toilet and producing 500 or 600 gallons of oil a day. Something to think about. Discovered in the early 70’s ,it was quickly buried by government and the supporting oil companys. Even NASA did a project that was quickly shelved. Check out algae oil on the net you will be surprised.
Addition: Algae only requires 50 to 60 watts of light per square metre.The sun delivers approx 1000 watts per square metre… so algae can be 20 times more and just be recirculated to the light source.
I think you are referring to ethanol. Biodiesel can be made from any scrap oil, including animal fats, so I guess you could fill up on the Soylent Green pump if you wanted.
Added:
The Soylent Green oil would add a lot more than 0.3% Besides, where do you get that number from?
"Hurry up and boil Grandma, kids. I have to be to work by seven!"
I used to think the same way, but apparently there is spare land which could be used for biofuel production, and the rise in food prices this year is also due to climatic problems causing a shortfall in food production. Market forces will bring more land into production to suply the biodiesel industry.
Some increase in food prices may not be a bad thing anyway, most people agree it is underpriced, and the cheap American grain Is causing havok with economies around the world.
But yes, biofuels will never fill the gap of oil given the current demand, niether for transportation, nor all the other products we make from oil, chemicals for growing biofuels for starters.
.
You make a very good point.
Currently large areas of environmentally sensitive tropical rain forest is being cleared to grow the Palms that produce Palm Oil.
Palm Oil is one of the oils used in biodiesel.
In my opinion we should not destroy environmentally sensitive land to produce fuel for vehicles.
very good point.
I don’t think anyone is saying that biodeisel is a replacement for the oil industry, but it is a viable replacement for fuel in some vehicles.
The idea that all of the land would be converted to biodiesel production is ridiculous. The laws of supply and demand would prevent "huge hikes in the price of food crops". As food prices rose, more farmers would switch to those crops to make more money. Also, currently the government heavily subsidises the farming industry because it is not very profitable, but we don’t want to lose it.
Diverting some agricultural products to the biodiesel industry would have a minimally raise the price of food, and minimally reduce the price of fuel. It would also allow farming to become more profitable and rely less on government subsidy.
The main positive effects it would have are that it would reduce our dependence on foreign oil, and reduce the amount of greenhouse gases emitted.
If you can get a recent copy of National Geographic (either September or October 2007, I can’r remember off hand) they have a REALLY good article on the pros and cons.
The main point- Corn ethanol is basically a waste of food. Ethanol from plant cellulose can be very profitable. The cellulose can come from weeds, even houshold waste.
Check out the article, if you havn’t already. It may or may not change your kind, but it’s good to have the upt-to-date info.
They wont they dont check out the reality of it, they watch that iddiot Aussie ride around the US on Eco vehicles and never question how much realistic production would cost and what hoops you would have to jump through to come up with any significant production.
To hell with them let them sleep . People are about to wake up to a new clean abundant alternative fuel anyway .Its just around the corner . You can talk and preach on hear all you want but there is always going to be your septics always going to be someone trying to discourage you because of either ignorance or there afraid its going to change there lives or take out of there pockets there control over others and probably a few thousand other reasons
If i told you what this new abundant totally clean alternative fuel was you would probably be saying the same thing so why not let them give it a try without all of your skepticism . I know Bio-diesel isn’t the answer and so do they but hey there trying .
This new alternative absolutely clean environmental safe fuel is going to take off as soon as the ipo goes so relax chill out take a breather everything is going to be OK . Just have to weather the storm before the calm
It produces methane gas upon combustion and is a worst greenhouse gas than C02
It will vie with agriculture needs for land use
Biodiesel is expensive to prod
Straight vegetable oil would solve this issue. American fast food joints are producing and wasting tons of excessive vegetable oil every day.
While bio diesel isn’t the full answer it isn’t competing with ‘food for people" I work for a large poultry company the turns soybean into soy meal to put in poultry feeds . to turn the soy bean into meal you must remove the oil. My company once sells this hydranated by the tanker load but because of folks wanting healthier foods its not selling so much. Now the oil is used in bio diesel blends . We couldn’t sell the oil and now have a use for it.
Ethanol does use acres that were for food or feed corn .
I think biodiesel is a good idea however its only a bandaid fix.
It’s not a complete replacement. But it can help, particularly in the short term. Until we have electric and fuel cell cars, and the non-fossil fuel infrastructure to support them.
Global warming is a big problem. We’ll need all our tools.
I don’t understand….you lost me….completely. Are you saying what we do on our small farm here in Idaho is not viable?
I mean we grow the rapeseed (canola), squeeze it for the oil, and make biodiesel. We run our trucks and tractors with it.
The squeezings from the rapeseed are fed to our meat goats, as an exremely healthy suplimental fodder for them.
The goats in turn produce manure which fertilizes the fields of rapeseed, and alfalfa.
Of course we also have the goats to eat, and sell….
Oh wait, you must be talking about the mega agra businessmen, who don’t care about their land, not the small farmer, who cares deeply what is happening to their land.
Of course there is also a new biofuel plant opening a few miles from me, next year. They are going to be taking trash, hauled to the transfer station and processing it into biofuels. That means zero compitition for crop lands for fuels…just a reduction of the trash going to landfills. That kind of seems like a win-win situation for me.
Or how about the other multi-million dollar fuel plant opening about 150 miles from me? They are taking straw and turning it into biofuels. Straw…that’s the stuff left over from harvesting wheat, or barley. That would be the stuff farmers burned off their fields every year creating huge black clouds….it’s now too valuable to burn. Instead it will be baled and sent off to the plant, and turned into fuel for vehicles!
I live in the very heartland of potato country. 70% of the potatoes eaten in the U.S.A. are grown right here in my county. 30% of the potatoes eaten worldwide. Last year potato growers overplanted, and over produced. The dumped 6.5 MILLION pounds of the poatoes at the landfill, instead of sending them off to market. This was to keep the price of them higher…it was not a Government thing, it was something the growers decided to do on their own.
Problem is, they could have grown even MORE potatoes, but they didn’t. Some of them left fields fallow, instead of planting anything. Now the potato growers are talking about planting even MORE of them…all they can grow….and opening their own biofuel plant.
Potatoes are used to make Vodka…potatoes would make some mighty fine fuel. Is it going to solve the Nations fuel problems? No. Is it going to help? Yes!
In World War II, people fed themselves, and their neighbors with Victory Gardens. They were small garden EVERYWHERE, instead of a few large farms producing all the food.
Frankly, that is what we need…little fuel plants churning out fuels that are a good match with the local agriculture, and we need them EVERYWHERE.
My husband & I can do it on our small farm…we are independant of foreign oil (so we do not support terrorist!). Frankly our Nation can do the same dang thing.
As the technologies improve, the quality, and quantity of oil we can produce with garbage, straw, rapeseed, switch grass, ect will vastly improve. Just stay away from the stupid turning corn into fuel cycle…the return is horrid. There are MUCH better crops to use than corn.
~Garnet
Homesteading/Farming over 20 years
After moving an hour away from the county where I grew up to be able to continue to live the rural lifestyle I enjoy, I have to say that if increased demand for agricultural products will result in less farmland being developed into McMansions, I don’t see it as a loss.
Let me guess. You’ve never sat on a tractor a day in your life. All your information seems to come from one-sided sources. The problems of fossil fuel replacements, feeding starving people, and agriculture as a business…even a family business…are complex. Not simple or one sided.
Please separate Bio diesel and Ethanol as two separate subject.It is ethanol which is creating hike food prices,If we plane to have unused land for Jatopa,Palm and Al gee for Bio diesel it would be different story.No prise hike for food item.Added benefits to farmers and to Nation increase grunted revenue for both Farmers and Government.In short Mix and Match is the solution Wind Mill,Solerenergy,Hydro and increase production of raw-material for Bio-diesal like Jato pa,Palm(once Planted gives seeds for 40-50 years.)To me Al gee with research is going to be the whiner as well.
As it stands millions of acres of prime farm land are not used annually. We can produce much, much more food than we do now. This is the smaller of the two issues in my mind. The second concern about whether or not we can actually produce ENOUGH biofuel power to make a difference is more on point and the numbers remain hazy. However, I think it makes sense to have the discussion and make the effort as opposed to simply being contrary to new technology. Even now however, most of us can seriously assist in terms of fuel and oil.